Time To Free ALL Amiga Software...

Some of you may recall a while back I had a thread on Amiga.org asking why and if we as Amiga users should be able to easily and freely download the Workbench Disk Sets from the net without having the loony tunes from the copyright mafia screaming blue murder and getting their knickers in a twist...

The only one who "illegally" put a stop to this was the muppet who owns Cloanto and sells the Amiga Forever package. This fool illegally complained to Mediafire whom were hosting the Workbench ADF's...

Now as Cloanto have no legal basis or claim in law to prevent anyone from doing so (I have clarified this with my solicitors and a legal case is ready and waiting should Cloanto dare to "illegally" challenge it again), then it's time for all the Workbench disk sets to be made freely available for anyone to download instead of being held ransom into buying something they don't want from the money grabbing fools that are Cloanto...

As well as that I intend to make every old game and application also available for free download that are not actually available to legally purchase anywhere (I'll worry about the legality of it all should any actual genuine copyright holder ever come forward and take issue with it)...

So if enough people vote here in favour of having one place where they can easily find and download every old game or Amiga application then I will set up on this site a comprehensive list and method for every member to find and download any of these old abandoned pieces of software they need...

Or are you happy scouring the net or paying someone on eBay for this old abandoned software !!!

What do you think...

1) Make Everything Available...
2) Only Games...
3) Only Applications...
4) About Time Too...
5) I fully Support This...
6) No Need, Everything Is Out There Already...
7) No It's Illegal & Wrong...

This is a difficult issue, mainly due to the fact I had hoped to be in talks with Cloanto to do a deal with the free release of Workbench. However I haven't heard for quite sometime. I see it that Cloanto have some kinda deal with the Amiga OS owners, and they seem to be able to get hold of them.
While I disagree with anyone charging to release Amiga OS 1.x-3.1 (Classic AmigaOS) I understand there is some copyright to be upheld. I don't believe it is unto Cloanto to fight that case. Cloanto KNOW who own AmigaOS, that is apparent from your findings last time Franko, and from the messages I had after.

What we want as a community is the freedom to share and have copies of classic AmigaOS without the 'fear' of being labelled pirates! This OS is over ten years old! Sure, keep AOS4.X, 3.5/3.9 even. But anything 3.1 and before should now be made free to all classic users! What does the OS owner think will happen? No one sales Classic AmigaOS FFS! For us Classic Amiga Users we have no support from the AmigaOS owner, no update, fuck all. At least we can freely have the OS.

Franko, suggestion of different tack. We create a group to and first contact Cloanto. We could form a group to take this on, but by trying to contact people that have 'links' to the Copyright holder. We ask first, we hack and fuck 'em up second.

Spunky out

Cloanto only have the rights to distribute certain versions of Amiga OS A.K.A. "Workbench" and only to be used under strict conditions with their "Amiga Forever" package. This is fact and I have legal papers sitting waiting should Cloanto stick their nose in again this time...

The only thing Cloanto can block is the use of the trademark "Workbench" which they own but that is simple to avoid as the Workbench disk sets can be distributed under another name, "OS1.3, OS2.04" etc... and Cloanto not being the copyright holders in any way shape or form cannot do a damn thing legally about it...

I would never contact Cloanto after the shit they pulled the last time. Cloanto will only be contacted on my behalf from my solicitors if they ever stick their nose in again and this time I will take legal action against them but Cloanto have nothing to do with what I am going to do here, so they don't really come into the equation...

To me it's sad and ridiculous in this day and age to see those petty minded copyright mafia wahoos and money grabbing scum like Cloanto whinging and whining and preventing genuine Amiga users from easily being able to obtain all this old abandoned software that the original copyright owners could give a crap about anymore...

It's amazing to find that certain so called Amiga users on these forums like to paint themselves whiter than white and holier than though with all this copyright bullshit when they don't even own the things and I'll bet they have the vast majority of their Amiga software as "illegal" copies which they will deny of course...

To me it's all very simple and having spent many months last year going over all the possible legal ramifications with my solicitors and others, then I reckon it's time to put everything up for download that cannot be bought "legally" anymore for everyone who wants to use them for free and not make a profit out of others work like Cloanto do as they rip people off and hold the Amiga community to ransom...

Hell, I'd be perfectly happy if anyone who does actually own the copyrights to any Amiga software does come forward and make themselves known...

I would even be happy to come to an agreement with them to host their software and give it away for free or "sell" it for a nominal fee like 50p or whatever they think it's worth per download, and all costs would be met by myself and money made from "sales" went directly to the copyright holder...

Dunno what it is with certain weirdos in the Amiga community who feel the need to restrict everyone else to their own two faced lying hypocritical views but as what any of them says doesn't actually matter I just wish they'd shut the fuck up and crawl back under the rock from whence they came...

If enough people want me to do this then I am more than happy to do so and expose even further shysters like Cloanto for they way in which they make things difficult for real Amiga users in order to make a few bucks off the back of other people work...

I do remember the fun we had at .org talking about this, there were some pretty uptight people! Penguin was one dribbling on about copyright. Hell, hands up, I have stacks of the stuff and even sold it back in the day when others couldn't get hold of it. I own 1000's of pirate Amiga floppies as well. Why? Cos I was poor and it was easy, and I was a kid. But this is different and always has been, like you said, this is an Operating System for a computer that both have not been sold for many many years.
Some of us never made backup's, and even if we did, those too could become corrupt. If all those game publishers can make their Amiga games public domain, I'm sure the Amiga OS copyright holders could!

I assume the reason that Amiga OS no longer has the name Workbench is due to Cloanto owning the trade mark?

I was in talks with someone to do what you proposed, in terms of, I could distribute Amiga OS on floppy for free. Or rather for a small fee that covered the cost of the floppy and P+P. I would still like and be happy to do this, however the conversation has dried up.
It would have been nice for YOCM to be a licensed Amiga OS distributor.

Hell. throw caution to the wind. I am really sick of reading posts from people wanting to find "legal download sites or stores" They make me sick.
In all honesty, there is very little I am looking for - But that isn't the point, is it?

@ Lord Spunky

Me hands are up and waving about frantically...

Cloanto's only claim to anything is if you use their trademark "Workbench" on anything, they threatened MediaFire with legal action if they ever find any files on their using the name "Workbench". MediaFire had to remove them but I replaced them and simply called them OS1.3 etc... as Cloanto are not the copyright holders and cannot submit a legal complaint to MediaFire now...

They even claimed that amongst all my online Amiga backups on Mediafire that the ROM images I had made myself from real Amiga's were theirs and illegal. MediaFire deleted these too but soon put them back after an email from my solicitor...

Now if Cloanto ever submit an illegal complaint again about my files stored on MediaFire I have instructed my solicitor to proceed with legal action against them as nothing on there is copyright or owned by Cloanto. Under US Law in which Mediafire operates anyone submitting a copyright complaint has to be the actual copyright holder and if not they are open to legal proceedings for filing a false claim by both MediaFire and the person about whom the complaint was made...

You may think I'm being harsh on Cloanto but here's is what it all boils down too...

There are very few old Amiga software companies/ house still left that make their old stuff available to legally download (Team 17 is one of the very few who spring to mind)...

The vast majority of copyright holders of Amiga software can no longer be contacted anymore to ask them for permission to make available their old Amiga software...

The Workbench files etc... on the Cloanto Amiga Forever package can only legally be used under the strict licensing terms as part of the emulator package on a PC and not transferred to your Amiga or used to make floppy disks from for use on your Amiga...

For the vast majority of Amiga software the only way to possibly find out if anyone out their who is a legitimate copyright owner actually cares or is bothered anymore is to make this old software publicly and hope that the copyright holder makes themselves known and either agrees to their stuff being made available or demands it be stopped...

Say for example you lose all your Amiga stuff (for whatever reason, fire theft) and you purchase some new (second hand) equipment from eBay. These may no come with the appropriate Workbench disks etc... (most likely) so where do you go to buy these disks legally.... Answer = nowhere...

So why should genuine Amiga users be held to ransom by the copyright mafia and companies like Cloanto and have life made difficult for them in pursuit of their hobby because they want it that way and in Cloanto's case for financial gain...

Let's face it Cloanto's Amiga Forever is owned and used by your typical PC owner for playing Amiga games and I can guarantee you 99% of the people using it will most certainly not be using ADF's made from their own genuine collection of real Amiga floppies and will in fact be downloaded or bought from eBay "Pirated" ADF's

It ridiculous, sad & ironic that a company who makes a product that we all know is used with "pirated" software should be the one who complains about "piracy" when their product is used by almost all to make "pirated" ADF's usable...

It's high time all this bullshit ended and certain people stopped burying their heads in the sand and pretending that we all use legitimate 20 odd year old original software...

Post a link to a so called "Pirated" bit of Amiga software that's been unavailable to buy for gawd know how many years and the copyright holder couldn't give a crap about and what happens, that link will get deleted by people who use pirated software themselves...

It's like people who "think" or "claim" Doctors and Nurses don't use drugs or Policemen don't actually beat people up... it's sheer hypocrisy and just downright dumb and it's time people began to stop pretending like little kids hiding their faces behind their hand and saying "na, na, can't see me"...

(Bit of along one that but there's a lot to be said on this topic)...

motrucker wrote:Hell. throw caution to the wind. I am really sick of reading posts from people wanting to find "legal download sites or stores" They make me sick.
In all honesty, there is very little I am looking for - But that isn't the point, is it?

While I can understand one or two newbies who have maybe bought a second hand Amiga for the first time or have bought Amiga Forever asking that, what makes me laugh are those who have been into the Amiga for year asking...



Sometimes wonder if it's all worth it as some folk in the Amiga Community seem downright retarded at times to be honest...

Good job I aint hired any moderators yet or we'd all be in trouble...

Agreed Franko, I am in total agreement with you.

Good job Penguin isn't on here or any org mod, you would have had a right old battle. The Franko and anti-pirates would have formed a lynch mob!
Hmmmm wonder if Trevor Dickinson could be any help? I know he is doing A-EON but he may know more or be happy to help?

@ Lord Spunky

Forgot to mention, the reason you never heard back from Cloanto is that they have no legal rights to issue anyone with a distribution licence for the Workbench disk sets as their licence only covers them for specific use in their Amiga Forever package...

Not that that (always sound wrong when you type "that that" !!!) means anything as A.inc whom issued them the licence could easily be proven in a court of law that they do not hold exclusive rights to issue any distribution licence for Workbench (if at all). All legal cases A.inc were involved in were flawed and the judgements made were in the strictest of legal terms completely wrong and could easily be proven so by any decent legal team...

The whole thing is one big bad joke, kept going by people like Cloanto & A.inc who are desperate to scratch every penny they can from the corpse of the Amiga and these scum have proven by their actions that they don't give a damn about the Amiga or it's users as long as they can keep scraping a few bucks from it...

It would be really great if every Amiga user started up a website and made everything that you can no longer buy available for free download, it would be easy to do and only take up some spare time setting up the site, which if I can do it with less than 2 years experience of the net then anybody can and you don't even have to maintain the site all you have to do is let people know it's there for them to download everything from...

I thought that Toni Wilen / Jason McMullan had released an open sauce KSRom that could be used with existing Amigas / FPGA Arcade / Natami / UAE / Any other project. I don't see what good the genuine C= roms are if that's the case. Better to pay them to implement any missing functionality on a public license than pay some lawyer to haver on in a courtroom?

As for the software, if you make that public it's not just the software / authors that you're (undermining / attacking / threatening / totally not bothering) it's anyone else who relies on the law you're seen to be violating, if you hold IP I believe you're dutybound to protect it. I think you might have more luck getting public bodies like universities / libraries / the FSF e.t.c. to back a petition to the EU to legally recognise abandonware (Which Amiga Kickstart Roms surely are. When was the last time a system actually shipped with them? 1996?) but then I am not a lawyer.

Anyway, I guess I don't see the risk / reward ratio looking too good. I mean, so what if Cloanto are mugging folk for KS Roms, I doubt that there is a deluge of potential amigans being held back by the 9.95 Euro download price of Amiga Forever. Do I think they're totally in the right to sell it @ that price? I don't know how much they're paying for that right or to whom so I make no judgement. Does it suck? Yes. Is putting your balls on the line to make it freely available to anyone who cares (I suspect not many) a good idea? I have my doubts.

I guess in short that I think that "The Amiga" whatever that may be (hardware / OS / Scene) is, now don't make me regret signing up here for some true Scottish freedom of speech ;^), irrelevant enough to the world at large, to the people who are now the age that we were when we fell in love with everything amiga that 9 Euros for Amiga forever is the least concern with getting ambitious young developers on board.

Seriously, who's developing IRIX software today? And SGI had a much better run than C=. I should say that I've never used IRIX and I doubt I'd care for it if I did and that years since breaking my Viper '030 and abandoning my A1200 I'm still on Forums essentially ranting at the pigeons and shaking my fist at god for allowing Medhi Ali to exist.

I guess I'm just trying to see a way forward for my favorite platform. I'm sure a £100 OS and £2500 hardware isn't it. What does a £2600 "Amiga" OS 4 platform give a comp.sci student that a £300 netbook doesn't? I think it's Open Source / Open Hardware or die, I guess. Back to the topic though, I'm not sure I see the point in stirring an IP hornet's nest.

Anyway, rant over.

@ Bunders

Here's ra wan place ye kin huv yer freedom o speech an no get censored in any wie whistoever, so nay wurries oan that score...

It not about Cloanto making money or about them starting at abround 10 Euros for their software, it's about the the fact that they are the ones preventing genuine Amiga hardware owners being able to obtain easily (whether paid or for free) the old Workbench disk sets...

It's a long story but Cloanto are the ones complaining about "piracy" and like I have said before their product is used by the vast majority with "pirated" products and I aint gonna stand for such hypocrisy especially when it affects me personally and they make money of it, no matter how big or small the sum...

Their product is not for Amiga hardware owners anyway it's a product for use on PC's and like I have said their licensing terms don't allow you to legally buy it and use the Workbench disk sets on your real AMiga hardware...

So it kinda ironic and hypocritical of them to be the self appointed copyright police of the Workbench disk sets when they are not even producing a product for real Amiga hardware owners...

They are the ones claiming to be going by the strict letter of the law as far as copyright goes when even they know their very product is mainly used to enable people with PC's to use "pirated" ADF's and because of them "protecting" their sales they Cloanto are the ones that prevents us genuine Amiga hardware owners from being able to legally obtain old Workbench disk sets...

At the end of the day, Cloanto are only as small (but annoying) part of this, it's just downright crazy (whatever your views on IP) for all that old abandoned software not be used by those who would like to use it legally (especially when most of the original copyright holders could care less) to not be able to obtain without having to pretend that none of us do so or even know where to find it or even mention where to find it...

Like I say it's like little kids hiding their faces behind their hands and pretending you can't see them, it's time to grow up and put an end to all this bullshit and petty nonsense once and for all...

Like you say it's irrelevant to the world at large, so why are one or two greedy little shites allowed to hold us few remaining Amiga users to ransom just so they can scrape a few last miserable quid from it...

Franko wrote:@ Bunders

It not about Cloanto making money or about them starting at around 10 Euros for their software, it's about the the fact that they are the ones preventing genuine Amiga hardware owners being able to obtain easily (whether paid or for free) the old Workbench disk sets...

Ah, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood.

Franko wrote:@ Bunders

Their product is not for Amiga hardware owners anyway it's a product for use on PC's and like I have said their licensing terms don't allow you to legally buy it and use the Workbench disk sets on your real AMiga hardware...

So it kinda ironic and hypocritical of them to be the self appointed copyright police of the Workbench disk sets when they are not even producing a product for real Amiga hardware owners...

Eh? They're the sole legal supplier of WB disk images and they don't allow their customers to use them on actual C= hardware? That's ridiculous.

It's a shame these guys don't offer an on-demand service

http://www.floppydisk.com/duplication.htm

who could print off disk sets for individual sale and pay whatever license fees were required. But don't the IP holders have a responsibility in protecting their IP to make such arrangements themselves? And haven't they, in not doing so, forfeited their right to the IP in these circumstances?

Class action lawsuit bounty maybe? lol.

Have you tried contacting the FSF?

http://fsfe.org/

Bunders wrote:Eh? They're the sole legal supplier of WB disk images and they don't allow their customers to use them on actual C= hardware? That's ridiculous.

It's a shame these guys don't offer an on-demand service

http://www.floppydisk.com/duplication.htm

who could print off disk sets for individual sale and pay whatever license fees were required. But don't the IP holders have a responsibility in protecting their IP to make such arrangements themselves? And haven't they, in not doing so, forfeited their right to the IP in these circumstances?

Class action lawsuit bounty maybe? lol.

Have you tried contacting the FSF?

http://fsfe.org/

Lord Spunky just last year tried to negotiate such a deal with Cloanto to distribute actual Workbench floppies on their behalf, but a lack of correspondence on Cloanto's part meant this lead to nothing...

As I have said though the distribution licence Cloanto has from A.inc restricts them from doing so anyway as the terms of the licence limits the use of those Workbench disk sets to be used solely for use with their Amiga Forever package (ie on a PC only) and does not even allow the owner to legally put the ADF's onto floppies to use on real Amiga hardware...

It's a load of bullshit if you ask me but that's the facts in this case and is the main reason Cloanto will do everything in their power to prevent anyone from distributing Workbench disk sets, cos as it stands they know that people will purchase their Amiga Forever package just to get the Workebench ADF's even though they know they will be used illegally in terms of the licence they have...

Of Course Cloanto won't say anything about this publicly but to me they are the ones in a perfect position to solve the "Workbench" side of this debate by at least trying to re negotiate their licence to allow them to sell/ give away / distribute or make available online Workbench disk sets. They wont of course as it suits them better to have them tied to their Amiga Forever package, which is fine for those emulating an Amiga on a PC but shit for those of us using real Amiga hardware...

As for all other software, save for the few companies who do make available some of their back catalogue online, the rest will only ever be brought to light if we make them all available online and see if any genuine copyright holders come forward and either complain or agree with it...

I have done two things. Both of which will end no where but I had to ask the question.

I have emailed Trevor Dickinson of A-EON to ask his view and in the assumption that he must have contacts within Amiga.Inc to ask our questions, as we never get a reply!

I have emailed my contact to see if there is an update on the situation.

..................what is the situation one Amiga software? As in, most games are freely available now, but I can't seem to find, legal, or otherwise, Amiga software, example, I was desperate for Kind Words 3 and had to buy another second hand copy. I am still on the hunt for a working copy of Pen Pal (I have lots of story's etc written in these formats I want to read......)

You might get a reply from Trevor (though I can't see how he can help) but A.inc won't reply to anything, most likely because they know even their claims to certain Amiga copyright and IP is on very shaky ground legally...